From rpeterso at calpoly.edu Tue Dec 13 12:44:22 2005 From: rpeterso at calpoly.edu (Rohen Peterson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 12:44:22 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? Message-ID: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> Looks like Linus likes KDE too. Personally, I think he is a bit mistaken, because ion is the best WM (with Fluxbox in a close second), but he at least has it right that it is better than gnome. Linus' words: I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do. Please, just tell people to use KDE. Linus The thread: http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html Rohen Peterson From rpeterso at calpoly.edu Tue Dec 13 15:25:53 2005 From: rpeterso at calpoly.edu (Rohen Peterson) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 15:25:53 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? In-Reply-To: <1134514479.11174.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> <1134514479.11174.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <439F5881.7010200@calpoly.edu> Linus isn't the god of all, but his opinions seem to have a resounding effect as he is the guy that started it all. I have to disagree with you in the placement of items in gnome. I always find it a pain to use a gnome machine because of the weird categories that the menu is divided into (by default). I have always found the KDE menu system to have things exactly where I think they should be (except disk utilities, which I still can't understand in either env). As for ease of use and the learning curve for *boxes - there is none. Take a look at fluxbox one day, it works from the install and it has a right click menu. That is it. The menu can be modified by modifying a single text file. Now, if you want to change the background, there is a single app for that. But its just like using another desktop env. I honestly find it more irritating to work with KDE or gnome and try to figure out where the utility I need is and graphically modify it as opposed to going directly to the back end program and modifing the config files or running the app. Minimal interfaces are for those who know what they are doing, as the use of terminals is needed. For new users, KDE is the way to go. I really like the fact that it has a Control Center, where most of the interface/desktop settings can be set/modified. Gnome has that spread over an entire menu. Why? Oh, an Nautilus is a pain in the ass - Konqueror is also the best SMB browsing graphical interface I have ever used. Rohen Peterson Red Wagner wrote: > Ahh, a flame war on which to roast chestnuts for the holidays. > > I've come to be happy enough with Gnome, though it wasn't until 2.8 that > this was the case. It's easy to use, and whenever I try and find an > option, it's usually where one would expect it to be. > > However, as Linus points out, if it's not where you expect it to be, the > option is probably just not available. There are a couple of wonderful > features that I remember from Gnome 1.4 that _still_ aren't available in > Gnome 2.12, specifically edge-flipping and middle clicking on the > maximize button to maximize windows vertically (BEAUTIFUL for terminals > andor text editor of choice). > > Originally the reason I started using gnome was that it _looked_ better > than KDE and I kept using it because the interface was more logical. As > for the Ions, XFCEs, and *boxes of the world, I don't want to dedicate > time to _learn_ a freaking window manager, I might as well just start up > emacs full screen and go from there. > > There's also the question of why a lifetime kernel developer's views > even matter in a field where he has little experience, except as an > end-user. He definitely represents a group of people who feel they've > been left behind by Gnome in the attempt at reaching "the average user" > which apparently includes Grandma, but I'm not sure his input is valid > beyond an isolated user-survey. > > I almost tried KDE when I read the article, simply because I hadn't > tried it in over 2 years. But "apt-get install kde" revealed that > installing kde would consist of almost 362 separate packages and 601mb > of space on my hard drive. I don't have to deal with gentoo's compile > time (apt is almost enough to make me believe in Jesus), but it's still > more than I want to deal with just to test out a desktop environment. So > I'll go on being what Linus referred to what linus referred to as a > "FUCKING IDIOT"[1] gnome user for the time being. > > Good Times, > > -Red > > [1]http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000395.html > > > > > On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 12:44 -0800, Rohen Peterson wrote: > >>Looks like Linus likes KDE too. Personally, I think he is a bit >>mistaken, because ion is the best WM (with Fluxbox in a close second), >>but he at least has it right that it is better than gnome. >> >>Linus' words: >> >>I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. >> >>This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of >>Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will >>use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long >>since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do. >> >>Please, just tell people to use KDE. >> >> Linus >> >>The thread: >> >>http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html >> >>Rohen Peterson >>_______________________________________________ >>Chatter mailing list >>Chatter at lists.cplug.org >>http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter > > From bswagner at calpoly.edu Tue Dec 13 23:27:12 2005 From: bswagner at calpoly.edu (Red Wagner) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:27:12 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? In-Reply-To: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> References: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <1134545232.10979.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Ahh, a flame war on which to roast chestnuts for the holidays. I've come to be happy enough with Gnome, though it wasn't until 2.8 that this was the case. It's easy to use, and whenever I try and find an option, it's usually where one would expect it to be. However, as Linus points out, if it's not where you expect it to be, the option is probably just not available. There are a couple of wonderful features that I remember from Gnome 1.4 that _still_ aren't available in Gnome 2.12, specifically edge-flipping and middle clicking on the maximize button to maximize windows vertically (BEAUTIFUL for terminals andor text editor of choice). Originally the reason I started using gnome was that it _looked_ better than KDE and I kept using it because the interface was more logical. As for the Ions, XFCEs, and *boxes of the world, I don't want to dedicate time to _learn_ a freaking window manager, I might as well just start up emacs full screen and go from there. There's also the question of why a lifetime kernel developer's views even matter in a field where he has little experience, except as an end-user. He definitely represents a group of people who feel they've been left behind by Gnome in the attempt at reaching "the average user" which apparently includes Grandma, but I'm not sure his input is valid beyond an isolated user-survey. I almost tried KDE when I read the article, simply because I hadn't tried it in over 2 years. But "apt-get install kde" revealed that installing kde would consist of almost 362 separate packages and 601mb of space on my hard drive. I don't have to deal with gentoo's compile time (apt is almost enough to make me believe in Jesus), but it's still more than I want to deal with just to test out a desktop environment. So I'll go on being what Linus referred to what linus referred to as a "FUCKING IDIOT"[1] gnome user for the time being. Good Times, -Red [1]http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000395.html On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 12:44 -0800, Rohen Peterson wrote: > Looks like Linus likes KDE too. Personally, I think he is a bit > mistaken, because ion is the best WM (with Fluxbox in a close second), > but he at least has it right that it is better than gnome. > > Linus' words: > > I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. > > This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of > Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will > use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long > since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do. > > Please, just tell people to use KDE. > > Linus > > The thread: > > http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html > > Rohen Peterson > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter From rpeterso at calpoly.edu Wed Dec 14 02:39:17 2005 From: rpeterso at calpoly.edu (Rohen Peterson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 02:39:17 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? In-Reply-To: <439FCFE3.9090204@condordes.net> References: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> <1134514479.11174.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <439F5881.7010200@calpoly.edu> <439FCFE3.9090204@condordes.net> Message-ID: <439FF655.7080804@calpoly.edu> I have to agree with Konqueror being bloated. It has all kinds of junk it shouldn't, but I only like its SMB browsing abilities. As for file managers, I love gentoo. It's simple, efficient, and very customizable. No graphics, but why do you need to preview a .tar, .mp3, or text file? I guess if you want pr0n previews it makes sense, but pornview is your best bet, not a file manager. Any comments Bob? Rohen Peterson Joshua J. Berry wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Rohen Peterson wrote: > >>Linus isn't the god of all, but his opinions seem to have a resounding >>effect as he is the guy that started it all. I have to disagree with >>you in the placement of items in gnome. I always find it a pain to use >>a gnome machine because of the weird categories that the menu is divided >>into (by default). > > > I have to agree with Rohen on this one. When I last tried GNOME 2.x > (probably well over a year ago now) ... I could only stand using it for > about a week before I went running back to KDE. I would spend an hour > looking around for a relatively-basic thing I wanted to tweak, only to > ask some other GNOME user (usually Travis ;) ) and find that either (a) > it was in some completely random part of the system I'd never have > thought to check, or (more often) (b) you couldn't do it in the first > place, because "Who'd want to do a thing like that?". > > I may have to give GNOME another try sometime -- it's been long enough, > and enough has changed, that I may as well. > > >>I have always found the KDE menu system to have >>things exactly where I think they should be (except disk utilities, >>which I still can't understand in either env). > > > KDE does have its organizational issues, but 3.4 and 3.5 have made good > strides in addressing those. I can usually find the feature or > preference I want, and if I can't, I can often find something close > enough to get by. And, more importantly, I can find it *without help*. > > >>For new users, KDE is the way to go. I really like the fact that it has >>a Control Center, where most of the interface/desktop settings can be >>set/modified. Gnome has that spread over an entire menu. Why? Oh, an >>Nautilus is a pain in the ass - Konqueror is also the best SMB browsing >>graphical interface I have ever used. > > > I think I actually (*gasp*) like spatial-ish browsing. Konqueror seems > overkill for a file manager -- why do I need all that crap in the > toolbar, and why are there ... ::counts:: ... 9 different menus just for > a stupid file browser? > > I know my preference probably runs against the grain in this respect, > but the only file manager I've found that seems somewhat-nice just from > a "how does basic-fu look and feel?" perspective is the OSX Finder. And > even the Finder has its own issues. > > Oh yeah, and frankly ... amaroK kicks Rhythmbox's ass. ;) > > - -- Des > > > - -- > Joshua J. Berry > > "I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere." > -- /usr/games/fortune > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFDn8/iaIxeYlQMsxsRAqVwAJwLmMTc+4qc6fxIRWeCAhmrvLKuOwCfRgh0 > 0PcKjvczPzJaGk2x61Se5Z4= > =yHsI > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From des at condordes.net Tue Dec 13 23:55:15 2005 From: des at condordes.net (Joshua J. Berry) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 23:55:15 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? In-Reply-To: <439F5881.7010200@calpoly.edu> References: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> <1134514479.11174.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <439F5881.7010200@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <439FCFE3.9090204@condordes.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rohen Peterson wrote: > Linus isn't the god of all, but his opinions seem to have a resounding > effect as he is the guy that started it all. I have to disagree with > you in the placement of items in gnome. I always find it a pain to use > a gnome machine because of the weird categories that the menu is divided > into (by default). I have to agree with Rohen on this one. When I last tried GNOME 2.x (probably well over a year ago now) ... I could only stand using it for about a week before I went running back to KDE. I would spend an hour looking around for a relatively-basic thing I wanted to tweak, only to ask some other GNOME user (usually Travis ;) ) and find that either (a) it was in some completely random part of the system I'd never have thought to check, or (more often) (b) you couldn't do it in the first place, because "Who'd want to do a thing like that?". I may have to give GNOME another try sometime -- it's been long enough, and enough has changed, that I may as well. > I have always found the KDE menu system to have > things exactly where I think they should be (except disk utilities, > which I still can't understand in either env). KDE does have its organizational issues, but 3.4 and 3.5 have made good strides in addressing those. I can usually find the feature or preference I want, and if I can't, I can often find something close enough to get by. And, more importantly, I can find it *without help*. > For new users, KDE is the way to go. I really like the fact that it has > a Control Center, where most of the interface/desktop settings can be > set/modified. Gnome has that spread over an entire menu. Why? Oh, an > Nautilus is a pain in the ass - Konqueror is also the best SMB browsing > graphical interface I have ever used. I think I actually (*gasp*) like spatial-ish browsing. Konqueror seems overkill for a file manager -- why do I need all that crap in the toolbar, and why are there ... ::counts:: ... 9 different menus just for a stupid file browser? I know my preference probably runs against the grain in this respect, but the only file manager I've found that seems somewhat-nice just from a "how does basic-fu look and feel?" perspective is the OSX Finder. And even the Finder has its own issues. Oh yeah, and frankly ... amaroK kicks Rhythmbox's ass. ;) - -- Des - -- Joshua J. Berry "I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere." -- /usr/games/fortune -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDn8/iaIxeYlQMsxsRAqVwAJwLmMTc+4qc6fxIRWeCAhmrvLKuOwCfRgh0 0PcKjvczPzJaGk2x61Se5Z4= =yHsI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bob at organizedinsanity.net Wed Dec 14 12:10:13 2005 From: bob at organizedinsanity.net (Bob) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:10:13 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] KDE vs Gnome vs ? In-Reply-To: <439FF655.7080804@calpoly.edu> References: <439F32A6.1080009@calpoly.edu> <1134514479.11174.34.camel@localhost.localdomain> <439F5881.7010200@calpoly.edu> <439FCFE3.9090204@condordes.net> <439FF655.7080804@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <1134591013.18875.22.camel@10.0.0.42> Well, Rohen, I wasn't planning to comment, but if you insist... I recommend XFE as a file manager. Very fast and light, while still being much more "user friendly" (decent-looking, customizable, easy-to-use, etc.) than something like Gentoo. I have nothing to say about Gnome Vs. KDE, since I use neither... but I have used both Konqueror and Nautilus, and I really do prefer XFE. Even if you already use Gnome or KDE, there's no reason to be restricted to their file managers. It's not like you care about the web-browsing functionality; you'll be using Mozilla anyway. The thumbnailing support is still iffy (but it is there, if you really want it), IMO, but as Rohen said, GQview works just fine for browsing your photos from China. -Bob On Wed, 2005-12-14 at 02:39 -0800, Rohen Peterson wrote: > I have to agree with Konqueror being bloated. It has all kinds of junk > it shouldn't, but I only like its SMB browsing abilities. As for file > managers, I love gentoo. It's simple, efficient, and very customizable. > No graphics, but why do you need to preview a .tar, .mp3, or text > file? I guess if you want pr0n previews it makes sense, but pornview is > your best bet, not a file manager. > > Any comments Bob? > > Rohen Peterson > > Joshua J. Berry wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Rohen Peterson wrote: > > > >>Linus isn't the god of all, but his opinions seem to have a resounding > >>effect as he is the guy that started it all. I have to disagree with > >>you in the placement of items in gnome. I always find it a pain to use > >>a gnome machine because of the weird categories that the menu is divided > >>into (by default). > > > > > > I have to agree with Rohen on this one. When I last tried GNOME 2.x > > (probably well over a year ago now) ... I could only stand using it for > > about a week before I went running back to KDE. I would spend an hour > > looking around for a relatively-basic thing I wanted to tweak, only to > > ask some other GNOME user (usually Travis ;) ) and find that either (a) > > it was in some completely random part of the system I'd never have > > thought to check, or (more often) (b) you couldn't do it in the first > > place, because "Who'd want to do a thing like that?". > > > > I may have to give GNOME another try sometime -- it's been long enough, > > and enough has changed, that I may as well. > > > > > >>I have always found the KDE menu system to have > >>things exactly where I think they should be (except disk utilities, > >>which I still can't understand in either env). > > > > > > KDE does have its organizational issues, but 3.4 and 3.5 have made good > > strides in addressing those. I can usually find the feature or > > preference I want, and if I can't, I can often find something close > > enough to get by. And, more importantly, I can find it *without help*. > > > > > >>For new users, KDE is the way to go. I really like the fact that it has > >>a Control Center, where most of the interface/desktop settings can be > >>set/modified. Gnome has that spread over an entire menu. Why? Oh, an > >>Nautilus is a pain in the ass - Konqueror is also the best SMB browsing > >>graphical interface I have ever used. > > > > > > I think I actually (*gasp*) like spatial-ish browsing. Konqueror seems > > overkill for a file manager -- why do I need all that crap in the > > toolbar, and why are there ... ::counts:: ... 9 different menus just for > > a stupid file browser? > > > > I know my preference probably runs against the grain in this respect, > > but the only file manager I've found that seems somewhat-nice just from > > a "how does basic-fu look and feel?" perspective is the OSX Finder. And > > even the Finder has its own issues. > > > > Oh yeah, and frankly ... amaroK kicks Rhythmbox's ass. ;) > > > > - -- Des > > > > > > - -- > > Joshua J. Berry > > > > "I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere." > > -- /usr/games/fortune > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > iD8DBQFDn8/iaIxeYlQMsxsRAqVwAJwLmMTc+4qc6fxIRWeCAhmrvLKuOwCfRgh0 > > 0PcKjvczPzJaGk2x61Se5Z4= > > =yHsI > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter > >