From GoodNews808 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 3 22:03:16 2005 From: GoodNews808 at yahoo.com (Good News) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 01:03:16 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Good News Message-ID: <200503040603.j2463Oj2011320@pi.cubicle.net> 1)Sept 2003: I was down Pittsburgh, and I heard a voice that said,"Good News". It confused me, but I felt compeled to come home to my old church. 2)When I arrive home and held my dads hands inside the Church(he is grounds keeper, and just so happened to be there), and profess to him and God my love, he went up and brought me down a Bible, The Good News Bible. 3)I have never heard of this Bible before in my life, the "Good News" I was spoken to is manifested in physical form. I don't claim to be a prophet. I fully know God exists as explained in the bible. I'm well educated, and I appreciate science. But neither science, nor other religions detract from the bible. If you read the bible, you'll find truth. From walter at ohio.com Sun Mar 6 14:38:17 2005 From: walter at ohio.com (walter at ohio.com) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2005 17:38:17 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Betta ANQR Lim. Message-ID: <788672148.94715611502693@ohio.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 5031 bytes Desc: not available URL: From calderon at cleveland.com Sun Mar 6 23:00:22 2005 From: calderon at cleveland.com (calderon at cleveland.com) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:00:22 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Sunrise SGP Lim. Message-ID: <131778419.55673374870267@cleveland.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 6379 bytes Desc: not available URL: From husmith at calpoly.edu Wed Mar 9 10:22:36 2005 From: husmith at calpoly.edu (Hugh Smith) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:22:36 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI Message-ID: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> Emacs good, vi (and vim) evil... well not just evil but 1970's technology that some people cannot give up. Actually students using xemacs has turned out to be evil. They take 10 seconds to save a file when c-x-c-s takes less than a second. I cannot convince them to learn 3-4 different keystrokes that will save a lot of time. You people have been way to quiet. Wake up and make some noise. The evil empire is not asleep. Another note... I received positive feedback from most students who did FYM this quarter. They would recommend it to their classmates... some suggested having a second one later in the quarter. In CPE317 we get them interested now we just need to close the sale. Also, the Fix Your Machine a few weeks later is a good idea... but I don't think many of the students heard about it. One student who did FYM did not get gcc and the other gnu products installed. This really hurt his chances since at the time he did not have the skills to solve the problem and 317 was picking up steam. Later, Hugh -- Dr. Hugh Smith Department of Computer Science California Polytechnic State University San Luis Obispo CA 93407 http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~husmith (805) 756-2801 From chad at tindel.net Wed Mar 9 10:39:43 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:39:43 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> > Emacs good, vi (and vim) evil... well not just evil but 1970's > technology that some people cannot give up. Oh good lord, here we go... I hate that stupid control key. Even on my Kinesis keyboard where it is in a more sane position than a standard keyboard, it is a pain to have to hit it for every command. What drives me crazy though is when people come out of college not having learned vi. It is the only editor that is de-facto guaranteed to exist on any Unix box, so if you get assigned to something in the field where the customer hasn't installed emacs and you don't know vi you make yourself and your company look like retards. BTW, I've changed jobs in HP and am now working in HP's linux lab. So I can concentrate on Linux full time and not have to worry about that HP-UX nonsense! Chad From kyle at ky13.net Wed Mar 9 11:12:07 2005 From: kyle at ky13.net (Kyle Wayman) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:12:07 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <20050309191207.GA23393@sasha.ky13.net> Gentoo comes with nano, not vi(m). Installing vi is actually quite time consuming on a new install. And, how does :w take 10 seconds? -Kyle On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 01:39:43PM -0500, Chad N. Tindel wrote: > > Emacs good, vi (and vim) evil... well not just evil but 1970's > > technology that some people cannot give up. > > Oh good lord, here we go... > > I hate that stupid control key. Even on my Kinesis keyboard where it is in > a more sane position than a standard keyboard, it is a pain to have to hit > it for every command. > > What drives me crazy though is when people come out of college not having > learned vi. It is the only editor that is de-facto guaranteed to exist on > any Unix box, so if you get assigned to something in the field where the > customer hasn't installed emacs and you don't know vi you make yourself and > your company look like retards. > > BTW, I've changed jobs in HP and am now working in HP's linux lab. So I can > concentrate on Linux full time and not have to worry about that HP-UX > nonsense! > > Chad > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter -- "The SIX things I could never do without: Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, and... a little luck" ---------------------------------------------------- Where will Kyle be all year: http://ky13.net/racing/ From akeen at falcon.csc.calpoly.edu Wed Mar 9 11:44:04 2005 From: akeen at falcon.csc.calpoly.edu (Aaron Keen) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:44:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI Message-ID: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> >From: Kyle Wayman >Gentoo comes with nano, not vi(m). Installing vi is actually >quite time consuming on a new install. For those not familiar with nano (probably a pretty small number of people on this group), the following is from the nano FAQ. >1.3. What is GNU nano? > > GNU nano is designed to be a free replacement for the Pico text editor, >part of the Pine email suite from The University of Washington. It aims to >"emulate Pico as closely as possible and perhaps include extra functionality". Sorry, this "editor" is not qualified to be a part of this "discussion". -Aaron vi bigot From kyle at ky13.net Wed Mar 9 11:57:03 2005 From: kyle at ky13.net (Kyle Wayman) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 11:57:03 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> I wasn't mentioning it to be a competitor, but simply to show that vi is NOT on every standard Unix install. Personally, I hate nano/pico. -Kyle On Wed, Mar 09, 2005 at 11:44:04AM -0800, Aaron Keen wrote: > > >From: Kyle Wayman > >Gentoo comes with nano, not vi(m). Installing vi is actually > >quite time consuming on a new install. > > For those not familiar with nano (probably a pretty small number of > people on this group), the following is from the nano FAQ. > > >1.3. What is GNU nano? > > > > GNU nano is designed to be a free replacement for the Pico text editor, > >part of the Pine email suite from The University of Washington. It aims to > >"emulate Pico as closely as possible and perhaps include extra functionality". > > Sorry, this "editor" is not qualified to be a part of this > "discussion". > > -Aaron > vi bigot > > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter -- "The SIX things I could never do without: Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, and... a little luck" ---------------------------------------------------- Where will Kyle be all year: http://ky13.net/racing/ From akeen at falcon.csc.calpoly.edu Wed Mar 9 12:03:53 2005 From: akeen at falcon.csc.calpoly.edu (Aaron Keen) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 12:03:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI Message-ID: <200503092003.j29K3rxK022733@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> >From kwayman at ky13.net Wed Mar 9 11:58:28 2005 >I wasn't mentioning it to be a competitor, but simply to show >that vi is NOT on every standard Unix install. Personally, I >hate nano/pico. Ah, good point. I felt gentoo was broken in this way. What sane person leaves nano as the only option? From chad at tindel.net Wed Mar 9 12:31:45 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 15:31:45 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> Message-ID: <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> > I wasn't mentioning it to be a competitor, but simply to show > that vi is NOT on every standard Unix install. Personally, I > hate nano/pico. I was actually referring to commercial Unices. Sorry for not making that clear. It is a crappy distribution indeed that both doesn't include vi and only has a pico-replacement by default. Chad From lug at big-endian.org Wed Mar 9 13:11:39 2005 From: lug at big-endian.org (Brian Kurotsuchi) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2005 13:11:39 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <20050309211139.GA18691@x.mikeynet.com> I guess we do have to have this editor discussion every few years... Perhaps one year there will actually be another good editor to add into the mix. The Control-this Control-that always bothered me as well; I can still hear my friends and co-workers typing - a staccato bang-bang, pause, bang-bang. In any case, if you use EMACS, vi or a derivative, no big deal. What about things such as syntax highlighting - I think that aids my productivity a lot, especially when I'm skimming code looking for something in particular. It pains me to see co-workers using vi, but not vim with it's features turned on. When it's so easy to start using... And what about having keyboards optimized for programmers? That would be nifty, since we use so many Shift- strokes ()[]*&#!<>... Please excuse my programming-spun opinions. Syntax highlighting isn't as important for editing /etc/shadow. 8) Brian Quoting Chad N. Tindel (chad at tindel.net): > > Emacs good, vi (and vim) evil... well not just evil but 1970's > > technology that some people cannot give up. > > Oh good lord, here we go... > > I hate that stupid control key. Even on my Kinesis keyboard where it is in > a more sane position than a standard keyboard, it is a pain to have to hit > it for every command. > > What drives me crazy though is when people come out of college not having > learned vi. It is the only editor that is de-facto guaranteed to exist on > any Unix box, so if you get assigned to something in the field where the > customer hasn't installed emacs and you don't know vi you make yourself and > your company look like retards. > > BTW, I've changed jobs in HP and am now working in HP's linux lab. So I can > concentrate on Linux full time and not have to worry about that HP-UX > nonsense! > > Chad From herring at richmond.com Thu Mar 10 13:17:22 2005 From: herring at richmond.com (herring at richmond.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:17:22 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Alpha Consulate KNGT Message-ID: <058814525.15041056542672@richmond.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 5488 bytes Desc: not available URL: From velasquez at georgia.com Thu Mar 10 15:53:18 2005 From: velasquez at georgia.com (velasquez at georgia.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:53:18 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Cyber Lab. Message-ID: <826059807.61511808676704@georgia.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 7775 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kkress at myslo.com Fri Mar 11 09:55:02 2005 From: kkress at myslo.com (Kevin Kress) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:55:02 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> Chad N. Tindel wrote: > It is a crappy distribution indeed that both doesn't include vi and only has > a pico-replacement by default. *sigh* (chants to self do not feed the trolls do not feed the trolls). Ok I'm going to ignore Chad's Gentoo comments. Moving on. I don't know what happened to the requirement, but when I took 118 (yes I know I'm dating myself, its 101 for all you n00bs) the lab required all assignments to be done on central UNIX (HPUX *blah*) and use vi. I learned my hjkl's my i's, a's , x's yy's and my dd's. The first time I used emacs was junior year. I couldn't figure out how to exit it. I finally just Ctrl-Zed the thing and killed it from the shell... sort thought it'd be nice if we could do that in general. As for it existing on ever server as an ls of my /usr/bin shows both vi and emacs are available on my server and I intend to keep it that way. Observe: kkress at proton: 09:58 /usr/bin>ls -l vi vim emacs lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 3 Mar 11 09:58 emacs -> vim lrwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3 Jul 3 2004 vi -> vim -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2290400 Dec 30 23:08 vim All is as it should be. --KMK > > Chad > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter From chad at tindel.net Fri Mar 11 10:11:27 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:11:27 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> Message-ID: <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> > >It is a crappy distribution indeed that both doesn't include vi and only > >has > >a pico-replacement by default. > > *sigh* (chants to self do not feed the trolls do not feed the trolls). > Ok I'm going to ignore Chad's Gentoo comments. Moving on. Help... me... I'm starving... so hungry... I think if you read my statement you'll see I didn't mention the word "Gentoo" anywhere. > I don't know what happened to the requirement, but when I took 118 (yes > I know I'm dating myself, its 101 for all you n00bs) the lab required > all assignments to be done on central UNIX (HPUX *blah*) and use vi. I > learned my hjkl's my i's, a's , x's yy's and my dd's. When _I_ took 118 there was no such thing as "central UNIX". My home was an AIX machine named violin. Hitchner let us pick either vi or emacs, but forced us to learn one or the other. And Staley made it clear if we ever came to office hours and pulled up pico that he and everyone in the courtyard would laugh at us. I don't know what 101/102/103 uses now... if it is Java, then it is probably on windows, possibly with some IDE that has an editor that is as powerful as notepad. > As for it existing on ever server as an ls of my /usr/bin shows both vi > and emacs are available on my server and I intend to keep it that way. Yeah newer boxes come with both (apparently unless you install some crap Linux distribution). You would be hard pressed to find a 1980's era AIX/HP-UX/MPE/VMS box with emacs. Chad From rpeterso at calpoly.edu Fri Mar 11 12:32:00 2005 From: rpeterso at calpoly.edu (Rohen Peterson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:32:00 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <42320040.50500@calpoly.edu> Don't we have it nice now with ANY text editor? I mean, they used to use hole punchers to program. Why can't everyone just get along and have respect for personal preference? Ozymandius P.S. Everything besides Fluxbox sucks From chad at tindel.net Fri Mar 11 12:38:01 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:38:01 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <42320040.50500@calpoly.edu> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> <42320040.50500@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <20050311203801.GA32229@calma.pair.com> > Don't we have it nice now with ANY text editor? I mean, they used to use > hole punchers to program. Why can't everyone just get along and have > respect for personal preference? Yes, but if we didn't keep demanding better, we'd all still be driving Model-Ts (with respect for people that had Model-As) because they're better than horses. ;-) Chad From jdwallac at calpoly.edu Fri Mar 11 17:11:44 2005 From: jdwallac at calpoly.edu (Jeff Wallace) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:11:44 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <423241D0.5020809@calpoly.edu> Just to fuel the flames :P (I found this at gnu.org) From: patl at athena.mit.edu (Patrick J. LoPresti) Subject: The True Path (long) Date: 11 Jul 91 03:17:31 GMT Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs,alt.slack When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi *and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like, 'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time. Ed, man! !man ed ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1) NAME ed - text editor SYNOPSIS ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ] DESCRIPTION Ed is the standard text editor. --- Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed because it's ED! "Ed is the standard text editor." And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look: -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed. Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K; and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!! "Ed is the standard text editor." Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed: golem$ ed ? help ? ? ? quit ? exit ? bye ? hello? ? eat flaming death ? ^C ? ^C ? ^D ? --- Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm the novice with verbosity. "Ed is the standard text editor." Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all. ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!! When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!! Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED! ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!! TEXT EDITOR. When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their "edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard. Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!! ? From red0x at users.sourceforge.net Sat Mar 12 00:14:22 2005 From: red0x at users.sourceforge.net (Ryan Du Bois) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 00:14:22 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <423241D0.5020809@calpoly.edu> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> <423241D0.5020809@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: What an awesome close to the thread. Beautiful. 10 Stars. ---------------------- Ryan Du Bois www.ryandubois.net On Mar 11, 2005, at 5:11 PM, jdwallac at calpoly.edu wrote: > Just to fuel the flames :P > (I found this at gnu.org) > > > From: patl at athena.mit.edu (Patrick J. LoPresti) > Subject: The True Path (long) > Date: 11 Jul 91 03:17:31 GMT > Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs,alt.slack > > When I log into my Xenix system with my 110 baud teletype, both vi > *and* Emacs are just too damn slow. They print useless messages like, > 'C-h for help' and '"foo" File is read only'. So I use the editor > that doesn't waste my VALUABLE time. > > Ed, man! !man ed > > ED(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual ED(1) > > NAME > ed - text editor > > SYNOPSIS > ed [ - ] [ -x ] [ name ] > DESCRIPTION > Ed is the standard text editor. > --- > > Computer Scientists love ed, not just because it comes first > alphabetically, but because it's the standard. Everyone else loves ed > because it's ED! > > "Ed is the standard text editor." > > And ed doesn't waste space on my Timex Sinclair. Just look: > > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed > -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs > > Of course, on the system *I* administrate, vi is symlinked to ed. > Emacs has been replaced by a shell script which 1) Generates a syslog > message at level LOG_EMERG; 2) reduces the user's disk quota by 100K; > and 3) RUNS ED!!!!!! > > "Ed is the standard text editor." > > Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed: > > golem$ ed > > ? > help > ? > ? > ? > quit > ? > exit > ? > bye > ? > hello? > ? > eat flaming death > ? > ^C > ? > ^C > ? > ^D > ? > > --- > Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is > generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm > the novice with verbosity. > > "Ed is the standard text editor." > > Ed, the greatest WYGIWYG editor of all. > > ED IS THE TRUE PATH TO NIRVANA! ED HAS BEEN THE CHOICE OF EDUCATED > AND IGNORANT ALIKE FOR CENTURIES! ED WILL NOT CORRUPT YOUR PRECIOUS > BODILY FLUIDS!! ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR! ED MAKES THE SUN > SHINE AND THE BIRDS SING AND THE GRASS GREEN!! > > When I use an editor, I don't want eight extra KILOBYTES of worthless > help screens and cursor positioning code! I just want an EDitor!! > Not a "viitor". Not a "emacsitor". Those aren't even WORDS!!!! ED! > ED! ED IS THE STANDARD!!! > > TEXT EDITOR. > > When IBM, in its ever-present omnipotence, needed to base their > "edlin" on a UNIX standard, did they mimic vi? No. Emacs? Surely > you jest. They chose the most karmic editor of all. The standard. > > Ed is for those who can *remember* what they are working on. If you > are an idiot, you should use Emacs. If you are an Emacs, you should > not be vi. If you use ED, you are on THE PATH TO REDEMPTION. THE > SO-CALLED "VISUAL" EDITORS HAVE BEEN PLACED HERE BY ED TO TEMPT THE > FAITHLESS. DO NOT GIVE IN!!! THE MIGHTY ED HAS SPOKEN!!! > > ? > > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter > From rmatteso at calpoly.edu Sat Mar 12 13:02:56 2005 From: rmatteso at calpoly.edu (Ryan Matteson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:02:56 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <42335900.2040004@calpoly.edu> Chad N. Tindel wrote: >< > >>I don't know what happened to the requirement, but when I took 118 (yes >>I know I'm dating myself, its 101 for all you n00bs) the lab required >>all assignments to be done on central UNIX (HPUX *blah*) and use vi. I >>learned my hjkl's my i's, a's , x's yy's and my dd's. > > > When _I_ took 118 there was no such thing as "central UNIX". My home was an > AIX machine named violin. Hitchner let us pick either vi or emacs, but > forced us to learn one or the other. And Staley made it clear if we ever > came to office hours and pulled up pico that he and everyone in the courtyard > would laugh at us. I don't know what 101/102/103 uses now... if it is Java, > then it is probably on windows, possibly with some IDE that has an editor > that is as powerful as notepad. >< When I took 118, there was no such thing as "Linux". My home was an AIX machine (386sx/16?) named ares, but Ada compiles ran faster on Zeus (AIX vm on 3900 mainframe). Continuing past 'ed' and into obscurity, from the Hacker Purity Test: 0x03B Can you whistle 300 baud? ;-) -- Ryan Matteson, CISSP rmatteso at calpoly.edu From wbrooks at security-by.obscurity.us Sat Mar 12 18:27:34 2005 From: wbrooks at security-by.obscurity.us (Bill Brooks) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:27:34 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <4233A516.5050205@security-by.obscurity.us> Chad N. Tindel wrote: > I hate that stupid control key. Even on my Kinesis keyboard where it > is ina more sane position than a standard keyboard, it is a pain to > have to hitit for every command. Surely you jest. Are you comparing this to 'vi', where every other word or so you're hitting the 'ESC' key to change bloody modes? Is that somehow less of a pain than hitting control? Please. I haven't used the Kinesis keyboard, but I assume that control is on the home row, unlike most PC keyboards that place it to just below the 'shift' key. On *every* keyboard that I've ever used, included two different ones from HP, I had to do some compressing of my left carpal tunnel to hit that ESC key. I actually learned GNU EMACS as a result of revulsion against vi. Any editor that can't erase the last character when I hit 'backspace' is an editor that I simply don't have to use. Modes? Please. When I took my first Cal Poly CSc class, I went into lab the first day and couldn't believe that the editor we were being taught was 'modeful'. After class, I immediately went to El Corral, bought the O'Reilly book on GNU EMACS and never looked back. When I have to use an IDE on a PC, the second thing I do after firing it up is map the keymapping to GNU EMACS. C-F, C-B, C-N, C-P, baby! C-x, C-s, C-x, C-c...yeah! >What drives me crazy though is when people come out of college not having >learned vi. It is the only editor that is de-facto guaranteed to exist on >any Unix box, so if you get assigned to something in the field where the >customer hasn't installed emacs and you don't know vi you make yourself and >your company look like retards. > > This assumes that a developer has to perform system administration tasks. There are plenty of developers out there that don't have to do system administration, including more than one on this list. Even Bill Joy, according to the last interview he did in _Wired_ doesn't use it on a regular basis anymore. If I was faced with the scenario that you outline above, and the box I was asked to work on actually had access to the Internet, the first thing I'd do after finding out that EMACS wasn't available on the system would be to FTP to ftp.gnu.org, get the relevant GNU EMACS binary tarball and install it in my account, if I couldn't do it globally. When I worked at Apple, and system administration tasks were outsourced to a contractor, this is exactly what I did and my boss commended me for outside-the-box thinking. Disk space is the cheapest thing you can put into a computer nowadays. I admit I've never run EMACS on VMS. Thank God! The CLI on that OS is bad enough. >BTW, I've changed jobs in HP and am now working in HP's linux lab. So I can >concentrate on Linux full time and not have to worry about that HP-UX >nonsense! > > Glad to hear you didn't get Fiorina'd. Bill From michael at indianapolis.com Sat Mar 12 15:24:12 2005 From: michael at indianapolis.com (michael at indianapolis.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:12 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] High Origin OQHV Message-ID: <563044309.49866463346203@indianapolis.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 7106 bytes Desc: not available URL: From beyondrob at cowpoly.net Sun Mar 13 19:44:11 2005 From: beyondrob at cowpoly.net (Rob McCready) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:44:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Chad N. Tindel wrote: > When _I_ took 118 there was no such thing as "central UNIX". My home was an > AIX machine named violin. Thats because all the cool kids had accounts on trumpet. Everyone knows violin was the short bus server. ;) Rob. From kyle at ky13.net Sun Mar 13 21:05:17 2005 From: kyle at ky13.net (Kyle Wayman) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 21:05:17 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> Message-ID: <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> No, the cool kids had accounts on the DECstations in the Electrical Engineering department's DEC lab. And the really cool kids were administrating that cluster. =) -Kyle On Sun, Mar 13, 2005 at 07:44:11PM -0800, Rob McCready wrote: > > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Chad N. Tindel wrote: > > >When _I_ took 118 there was no such thing as "central UNIX". My home was > >an > >AIX machine named violin. > > Thats because all the cool kids had accounts on trumpet. Everyone > knows violin was the short bus server. ;) > > Rob. > _______________________________________________ > Chatter mailing list > Chatter at lists.cplug.org > http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter -- "The SIX things I could never do without: Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, and... a little luck" ---------------------------------------------------- Where will Kyle be all year: http://ky13.net/racing/ From chad at tindel.net Sun Mar 13 21:51:43 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 00:51:43 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> Message-ID: <20050314055143.GA27840@calma.pair.com> > No, the cool kids had accounts on the DECstations in the > Electrical Engineering department's DEC lab. And the really > cool kids were administrating that cluster. =) Well, ignoring the fact that "administrating" isn't even a word... I definitely used by csc and elee accounts much more than central unix, with the exception of the classes that actually required central unix. And the move to hornet/falcon was just plain cool because having the new version of Solaris rocked! Chad From chad at tindel.net Sun Mar 13 22:45:55 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 01:45:55 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI - Definitions..... In-Reply-To: <42353135.7010609@calpoly.edu> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> <20050314055143.GA27840@calma.pair.com> <42353135.7010609@calpoly.edu> Message-ID: <20050314064554.GA34837@calma.pair.com> I stand corrected. Kyle, I prostrate myself before you and beg your forgiveness. I'll chalk it up to travel exhaustion, since I've been at airports and on planes all day. ;-) Chad > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=administrating > > It doesn't sound right to me, I prefer administering. > > Ozymandius > > chad at tindel.net wrote: > >>No, the cool kids had accounts on the DECstations in the > >>Electrical Engineering department's DEC lab. And the really > >>cool kids were administrating that cluster. =) > > > > > >Well, ignoring the fact that "administrating" isn't even a word... > > > >I definitely used by csc and elee accounts much more than central unix, > >with > >the exception of the classes that actually required central unix. And the > >move to hornet/falcon was just plain cool because having the new version > >of Solaris rocked! > > > >Chad > >_______________________________________________ > >Chatter mailing list > >Chatter at lists.cplug.org > >http://lists.cplug.org/mailman/listinfo/chatter From Micaiah at funkymag.com Mon Mar 14 02:06:13 2005 From: Micaiah at funkymag.com (Kingsley Simpson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 05:06:13 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Re: UD37[Phharmacy] Message-ID: <200503141016.j2EAG6if007938@pi.cubicle.net> Hello, waged below. prudence? that narrow passage out to sea. might overtake you. And don't you yet realize where you stand - is far more grave is that you have concealed from me this part of something of which I have knowledge. This city of Cartagena look was - leaving out of account your own appetites which, as every o is in reality a lagoon some three miles across, lies through a ne His excellency changed colour. He sat quite still, staring at th But mademoiselle was shrinking now, in horror. She was a girl up Have a good day. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lug at big-endian.org Mon Mar 14 15:26:02 2005 From: lug at big-endian.org (Brian Kurotsuchi) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 15:26:02 -0800 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> References: <200503091944.j29Ji4Dw021064@falcon.csc.calpoly.edu> <20050309195703.GB23393@sasha.ky13.net> <20050309203144.GA79110@calma.pair.com> <4231DB76.1080105@myslo.com> <20050311181127.GA8655@calma.pair.com> <20050314050517.GA10092@sasha.ky13.net> Message-ID: <20050314232602.GB18691@x.mikeynet.com> I wasn't 'in' with that crowd, and was quite distressed that I wasn't allowed to us the computers with hockey puck mouses. ;) Sometimes I would just walk into the lab so I could pet them and press their buttons. Oh wait, that's too much information, isn't it? Quoting Kyle Wayman (kyle at ky13.net): > No, the cool kids had accounts on the DECstations in the > Electrical Engineering department's DEC lab. And the really > cool kids were administrating that cluster. =) > > -Kyle From chad at tindel.net Mon Mar 14 17:00:01 2005 From: chad at tindel.net (Chad N. Tindel) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:00:01 -0500 Subject: [CPLUG Chatter] Emacs vs. VI In-Reply-To: <4233A516.5050205@security-by.obscurity.us> References: <422F3EEC.1090004@calpoly.edu> <20050309183943.GA59963@calma.pair.com> <4233A516.5050205@security-by.obscurity.us> Message-ID: <20050315010001.GA13101@calma.pair.com> > Surely you jest. Are you comparing this to 'vi', where every other word > or so you're hitting the 'ESC' key to change bloody modes? Is that > somehow less of a pain than hitting control? Please. I haven't used the > Kinesis keyboard, but I assume that control is on the home row, unlike > most PC keyboards that place it to just below the 'shift' key. On > *every* keyboard that I've ever used, included two different ones from > HP, I had to do some compressing of my left carpal tunnel to hit that > ESC key. On the Kinesis keyboard the Ctrl key is by your thumb, just above enter,space, backspace,delete. And yes, you can map 'ESC' to a more convenient location if you're using vi. The difference is that you're not Chording with it... with emacs you have to hit Ctrl-[something], but with vi you're just hitting ESC. A small point, but a huge difference. > I actually learned GNU EMACS as a result of revulsion against vi. Any > editor that can't erase the last character when I hit 'backspace' is an > editor that I simply don't have to use. Modes? Please. Yep. Pico can do that too. > This assumes that a developer has to perform system administration > tasks. There are plenty of developers out there that don't have to do > system administration, including more than one on this list. Even Bill > Joy, according to the last interview he did in _Wired_ doesn't use it on > a regular basis anymore. Bill Joy is hardly a good reference point when you're talking about people doing day-to-day engineering. > If I was faced with the scenario that you outline above, and the box I > was asked to work on actually had access to the Internet, the first > thing I'd do after finding out that EMACS wasn't available on the system > would be to FTP to ftp.gnu.org, get the relevant GNU EMACS binary > tarball and install it in my account, if I couldn't do it globally. When > I worked at Apple, and system administration tasks were outsourced to a > contractor, this is exactly what I did and my boss commended me for > outside-the-box thinking. Disk space is the cheapest thing you can put > into a computer nowadays. Or you could just know vi and be done with it. > Glad to hear you didn't get Fiorina'd. Who knows what will happen with the new CEO. 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